Category: Interviews

Interventions, Interviews

Jason Keith Fernandes: “Why Should We Be Critical about the 2018 Supreme Court Judgement Against Section 377?”

From the EPW podcast description: “A 2018 Supreme Court ruling that decriminalised queer sex was widely celebrated. Judges and petitioners framed the move as India “decolonising itself” of British legislation and beliefs. Based on an examination of the 495-pages long judgement, researcher Jason Fernandes shares with us that the court’s framing is simplistic and limited. Rather than rupture the Brahmanical nationalist project, the judgement buttresses an “ideal citizen subject of the Indian nation-state.” The insights he will share are based on an article he published in the EPW on 4 January 2020 titled “Probing into the Freedoms of Queer Liberation in India.”

Interventions, Interviews

Dale Luis Menezes: Interviewed by Devsurabhee Yaduvanshi on the scholarship on the Goa Inquisition

Devsurabhee says, “His recent article on the misuse of the Inquisition for fomenting politically motivated religious sectarianism is not only an interesting read, but has far reaching repercussions on how history is perceived and its potential future reformation. This article was the focus of our conversation, and it was intriguing to say the least! He also suggested logistical solutions to overcome hurdles in conducting thorough and unbiased research.”

Interventions, Interviews

Amita Kanekar: “Fear of Lions”

Courtesy: Rajat Ghai, Down to Earth.

Author Amita Kanekar, whose book Fear of Lions deals with the Satnami Rebellion during the reign of Emperir Aurangzeb, spoke to Down To Earth about the conditions which led to the peasant revolt. Excerpts.

After a book on the Buddha, you have now written one on the Satnami Rebellion. Did you see any underlying similarity?

I have been researching on struggles for social transformation in South Asia, and why they seem to have failed. But there are around 2000 years between the Buddha’s time and that of the Satnamis. So obviously, things would have changed—the political system, economy, social culture. Even caste evolved with time and the varied struggles against it also came under pressure from the arrival of Islam, and more recently, at least for Hindustan, of Christianity. The Buddha’s was a time of the rise of caste, declining tribal societies, early agriculture, a burst of urbanisation, and new states-turned-kingdoms, a time of dramatic change when many people might have still remembered a different life and different freedoms. These memories might have inspired some of the ideas of Buddhism, like nibbana (nirvana). The Satnami rebellion was a time of entrenched caste society. But there were radical thinkers like Raidas, Kabir and Nanak, at least partly thanks to the spaces created by Islam, and also rulers like the early Sultans who were less enamoured by Brahmanism than the Mughals. But even the Mughals were better than the rulers who followed them and upheld Brahmanism with a vengeance.

There were several insurrections during the reign of Aurangzeb, including one by Jat peasants in Mathura. Why did you decide to write on the Satnamis?

Irfan Habib has mentioned that the Satnamis were one of the few overtly anti-caste movements in South Asian history. They managed to overcome caste divides and created a small but radical new society which, however, was finally forced to take up arms against the authorities and was then crushed. Given that caste remains at the heart of all the problems of South Asian society even today—also this movement is almost unheard-of among lay people—this seemed like a good topic to write about. Most other rebellions during Aurangzeb’s time were led by zamindars and local landlords, wanting high positions in the empire or independent kingdoms. But the Satnami rebellion was led by people who were considered nobodies and whose aim was to create a more rational and just society.

There have been several slave and worker revolts throughout history? Do you see race, religion and caste on the same level when we compare these uprisings?

Babasaheb Ambedkar has a convincing argument on why caste is worse than most other forms of oppression, including slavery. Religion has been one of the means of justifying caste, race and class oppressions, but it has also been—especially the modern religions—a means of fighting such oppression. Buddhism, Islam and Christianity are believed to have originated as socio-spiritual movements for change in the real world, and were radically based on shared ideologies, not shared background or birth. Hinduism, in contrast, is based—both in theory and in practice—on caste.

Interventions, Interviews

Amita Kanekar: Interview at the Launch of “Fear of Lions”

Courtesy: Iris C F Gomes, Prutha Goa.

Amita Kanekar’s new historical novel Fear of Lions transports us into the world of Aurangzeb – a world of contradictions, where extravagant lifestyle and abject poverty are prevalent side by side…where a rebellion so powerful, led by a rumoured witch, threatens the Mughal Empire. This is Amita’s second novel after A Spoke in the Wheel which was set during the period of Emperor Ashoka’s rule. 

The novel took about 15 years to reach its culmination with the interspersion of other works such as The Portuguese Sea Forts of Goa, with Chaul, Korlai and Vasai along the way. It was mainly reworking the original writing and more in depth research that took up time. ‘I changed my attitude to the story and the way I looked at how it should be written because of exposure to ideas about caste, about anti-caste struggle, because basically this is an anti-caste story,’ says Amita.  The struggle of taking the research she had done and drawing a well-crafted appealing story out of it was a real one. Lack of personal knowledge or not enough information about rural conditions of the time proved a hindrance in the continuity of framing the storyline. It was finally in 2017 that Amita worked intensively to complete the novel.

Unlike A Spoke in the Wheel, Fear of Lions has all its sources listed. Amita says, ‘A big question that came up later for that book (A Spoke in the Wheel) was, “What are your sources?” I was unprepared at the time because it was my first work of historical fiction.’ 

There are conflicting views among the researchers she has read with regard to what the prominent problems during Aurangzeb’s rule were. Some writers say that taxation was an issue while others say it was the shortage of land to be given to those being asked to join the empire as nobles; still others say it was the religious beliefs of the time. ‘In fact, this is why I started writing fiction. When I wrote about the Buddha in my first book, I was interested in nonfiction…in social struggles,’ says Amita. The conflicting views she encountered as well as the fact that she was not an expert in the fields she was researching made taking a creative approach far more conducive in putting forth certain ideas in a book. She says, ‘When the question came of choosing between the scholars, one could take a creative decision about what could be right. I don’t justify it, I’m just going with it. Though to some extent the novels do justify it…why I think it’s right.’ There are arguments presented through characters in the book that debate ideas, and these are ideas of the scholars of today about what may have happened in the past.

Amita’s process of putting together a historical novel involves laying the foundation of the historical facts and research chronologically and then filling in the spaces with her own creativity. There are also characters in historical records whose identities are disputed. For example, in Fear of Lions there is a character called Abul Mamuri who is a government servant in the novel. The real Mamuri has written a history of Aurangzeb’s time. Earlier historians of Aurangzeb’s time say he’s a noble, an amir of Persian background, and this description of his character is what Amita went with originally in her writing. 

Some of the information that forms a part of the novel has been taken from contemporary diaries of the time. These were extremely important for research because after the tenth year of his rule Aurangzeb put a stop to the tradition of maintaining a court diary about his life because he thought it was un-Islamic. One of the diaries which is written by Mamuri gives a positive picture of the rebellion depicting the rebels as being anti-caste and coming from diverse backgrounds right from sweepers to tanners to peasants, groups that never came together. These rebels did not have priests or rituals, women had a significant role to play, and they upheld the truth at all costs. There were other accounts too that portrayed the rebels in a bad light. 

Mamuri’s positive approach is why Amita included him as a protagonist. She changed his role to that of a government servant after reading some more recent research on the man which says that, on the basis of his writing, Mamuri could be three different men, two Persians and a lower status individual. The writings conform to the dates of the third Mamuri, a non-Persian unknown. ‘I chose that so I could invent a background for him which could explain why he looked at them (the rebels) in a positive way,’ says Amita. Mamuri’s background also served to show that the Mughal court had people from all types of classes and having different levels of credentials. Although the main aim of the novel was to show the anti-caste struggle, Amita has tried to describe Mughal society in its complexity where even a nonentity like Mamuri could climb the rungs of prominence. 

The novel brings to light the connection of Goa with the Mughal Empire and its cultural significance. Trade with the Portuguese led to changing crops in agriculture besides other artistic influences. ‘Continuously there are references to changing crops because it is based on a rural uprising. The issue of agriculture is big and agriculture is changing rapidly. Cash crops are coming in and cash crops are being encouraged,’ says Amita. Along with the Mamuri-Goa link, there is also reference to Aurangzeb and his Viceroy of the Deccan having a taste for good quality coffee brought in by the Portuguese. 

The story of the uprising of the rebels of Narnaul is told from the perspective of the Mughal elites and not from the point of view of the rebels. Amita says, ‘There are some of us who belong to the privileged sections and benefit continuously from the existence of caste. If we ourselves tell the story of caste, of those who are fighting against us, we are appropriating somebody else’s story while at the same time benefiting from caste. This idea of appropriating the story of these rebels disturbed me because I have never, and probably my family has never, gone through what they have gone through, so who am I to tell their story?’

One of Amita’s main motivations behind writing a historical novel is the popularisation of history because she says most of what people believe to be history is actually myth and usually Brahmanical myth, for example, the story of Parashuram in Goa. She says, ‘This intermingling of history and myth where myth is dominant is the norm.’ If authentic historical facts are presented to the public in an attractive package, it will help educate them by making history more accessible. She says, ‘The past is really important. The past is not over. We can see the past is part of the politics of today. The past is part of our identity. It is part of what you are proud of or ashamed of.’

Fear of Lions by Amita Kanekar is published by Hachette India and is priced at Rs 399.

(This article is based on the interaction between Amita Kanekar and Dale Luis Menezes at The Dogears Bookshop, Margao, Goa.)

Interventions, Interviews

#Press: Amita Kanekar interviewed by the Navhind Times

Amita Kanekar’s new book ‘Fear of Lions’ focuses on a little known peasant rebellion known as the Satnami Revolt of 1672 that shook the mighty Mughal Empire during the reign of Emperor Aurangzeb. She gives
NT BUZZ a further insight

CHRISTINE MACHADO | NT BUZZ

Q. What made you choose the Satnami Revolt as the focus for your new book?

I wanted to write about social revolutions, or attempted social revolutions. And professor Irfan Habib mentioned in one of his books that this peasant rebellion of 1672 was one of the few overtly anti-caste movements that South Asia has seen. So, given that caste is the root evil at the heart of most of South Asia’s problems, it seemed an interesting topic, also because few people know about it.

Q. You’ve mentioned that the experience of writing this book was very different from your first, mainly because there are far more historical records and sureties for the background of the Mughal period.

Although there is almost too much material on Mughal Hindustan – in the sense that new research is constantly being published, forcing you to revise your ideas – there is very little on the peasant rebellion of 1672 and the small but radical new society created by the rebels. So, while I had no problem with the context of Mughal society, my picture of the society of the rebels is based a few brief mentions in contemporary accounts – the veracity of which is discussed in the novel – and on a 19th century document which is believed to be of the same peasant community, found in the British Library and translated by Irfan Habib.

Q. One of the tasks when writing about history is to properly verify the source content so as to be able to differentiate it from rumour. How do you go about this?

My book is based on secondary sources and modern translations of Mughal-era accounts. One has to go for sources with credibility, which would mean respected international scholars in the field of history. As you say, the versions of history that get circulated widely are often just rumour, or, even worse, Brahmanical myth and prejudice. And the problem with a lot of so-called historical fiction in India is that it just repeats these myths and prejudices, basing itself on Brahmanical narratives rather than historical research. This effectively – deliberately or otherwise – bolsters casteist and conservative viewpoints, and today’s politics.

Q. What are some other oft-neglected movements in India that you believe deserve more prominence today?

Well, the one that I am hoping to work on next is the religious conversions of Portuguese Goa, a movement towards social and spiritual liberation for many communities here.

Q. Although you are writing about old revolutions, how, in your opinion are the learnings from these incidents of importance even today?

Because the past is not over, it informs everything we do. Our view of our past builds our present identity, our sense of self, which is why it is very important for politics. And in India, whether in fiction or school textbooks or movies, the stories of the past are mostly all from the dominant caste point of view, and centred around the dominant castes, ignoring the lives, and histories and struggles of everybody else. Such a view of the past strengthens the continued dominance of these castes even today, while dismissing others as worthless. These myths uphold the existing social hierarchies, and glorify existing privilege as natural, ancient, god-given, or whatever. But there are alternative historical views, from the Ambedkarite movement, the Pasmanda movement, and other sections and individuals of Dalit-Bahujan-Adivasi society, which expose the privileged classes and tell the histories of the common people. These are growing, and their effect is to strengthen the struggle for social liberation and equality.

But I myself belong to the privileged sections of society, and certainly can’t claim to speak for anyone else. So the novel does not aim to tell the story of the radicals, but that of the elites who faced these radicals, fought them, and tried to destroy first them and then their memories.

Q. What are some things you learned about book writing and publishing from the first book that helped you this time around?

The only thing that helped, I think, is that I was taken a bit seriously by the publishing world because I had a novel to my name. (The first time, when I didn’t have anything to my name, I still managed to get an opening because I had a friend in the publishing world. Friends, relatives, background, contacts, nepotism… That’s how Brahmanical society works and I benefit as much as any member of the privileged castes. It would be a different story if I had a different background.) The writing part, though, was as difficult as before.

Q. You began writing novels also as a way of getting your students interested in these historical events. Do you believe that there is enough interest in history among the younger generation today?

I can’t say that they are not interested, though many are put off by the unending dates and names which is how history is often taught. The real problem, though, is what I’ve spoken about above, that there is little real history available for popular consumption in India. Everybody is a victim of the Brahmanical myths that are widespread in the name of history – like seeing the entire 500-year-old history of the Portuguese Goa as just the Inquisition, and completely ignoring the fact that the arrival of the Portuguese brought in modernity to South Asia. The dominance of the myth is the reason why politicians can speak nonsense about the ancient past and get away with it. My first novel, A Spoke in the Wheel, was in fact an attempt to take apart myths about the ancient past, or to separate the myth from the history.

Q. You’ve revealed that while working on your first book, your opinions about the historical events changed. Did this happen this time as well?

I’ve learned a lot of history while writing both books, especially about caste and anti-caste struggles. I have to thank a lot of scholars for this, including members of The Al-Zulaij Collective in Goa, the writers and editors of the web portal Round Table India, and members of the Pasmanda movement. For example, I was completely ignorant about how Brahmanical the Mughal elites were. The Emperor Akbar is famous as an icon of secularism because of his interest in Hinduism and Christianity, but nobody mentions how he upheld caste privilege, something that was followed by all his heirs, including Aurangzeb, popularly seen as a fanatic Muslim. But it is also true that Mughal society (and the Delhi Sultanate earlier) was less Brahmanical than, for example, the Rajput kingdoms that followed. This is why you had many radical ideas and movements, and also communities being born in the time of the Sultans and the Mughals, who managed to survive long enough to leave their mark on the historical record. Like Kabir, Ravidas, the Sikhs, etc.

(‘Fear of Lions’ will be released today at 4:30 p.m. at The Dogears Bookshop, Margao.)

Interventions, Interviews

Book Launch: Fear of Lions

Amita Kanekar will ne in conversation with Dale Luis Menezes on 6 July, 2019, at 4.30 pm, Dogears Bookshop, Margao, Goa.

On a hot April morning in 1673, two young Mughal nobles, Shamsher and his sister Zeenat, leave Shahjahanabad for a trip down the royal highway to the market town of Narnaul. The reluctant Shamsher is on a secret mission for his father; an excited Zeenat on one of her own.

Their journey takes them through the shattered landscape of a recently crushed uprising – one different from those the Mughal Empire frequently spawned, of petty warlords fired by dreams of kingship. This revolt was rumoured to have been inspired by Kabir and led by a witch; her militant followers, many of them women and all of them rabble, called themselves ‘Followers of Truth’. The rebels were defeated, but the questions remained: Where had they come from and what did they want? Had Kabir, the revered saint-poet of Banaras, really incited violence? Why couldn’t the inclusiveness fostered by Emperor Akbar hold the realm together? What role did the firangis have to play? Or was it all simply because of the bigot on the throne?

Set twelve years into the rule of the austere Aurangzeb Alamgir, in a time of impossible wealth and unbearable want, of brilliant architectural extravaganzas amidst ancient traditions of squalor, and of a caste society on the threshold of capitalism, Amita Kanekar’s powerful and intricately woven novel tells the story of an unlikely rebellion that almost brought imperial Dilli to its knees.

Order the book here or here.